PYP Podcast - Season 3 Ep. 004 - Kayla Mahaffey

Created and hosted by Nah...  Positioning Your Passion is a reoccurring conversation series featuring creative entrepreneurs discussing their process and most importantly how they are successfully navigating the creative industry. From rallying resources to collaboration, we’re talking accomplishments, challenges and future goals.

On Season 3 episode 004 Chicago native and artist Kayla Maheffey discusses her journey as a painter, growing up in Chicago and more. 

Instagram - @positioningyourpassion
Creator/Host - Nicole Humphrey @nahcreate
Director - Gabriel Cuillier 
Camera Op - TYanna Moore
Set Design - Jhaylen Cherry
Editor/Sound Engineer - Mxxd Media

Creator/Host - Nicole Humphrey @nahcreate
@positionyourpassion on instagram 

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Thanks for tuning in to Positioning Your Passion Podcast. I'm your host, Na, and I'm here with really one of my favorite people, Caleb Mahappy. Um, thank you so much for joining us and saying yes for being on the podcast. Um to kick it off, where are you from?

SPEAKER_01 0:19

I'm from the South South Chicago. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 0:22

Where specifically?

SPEAKER_01 0:23

I'm from I was actually born in Roseland. People out south. I know, yeah. People always forget that like I'm from the hundreds. I'm like, people like get like scared, like, whoa, the hundreds, like, I'm like, look, yeah, you know, it's it's good. You know, I used to live on 119. Oh, yeah. I was um 121st. Let's go. Yeah, yeah. So I was born in Roseland. I grew up actually like in the neighborhood of like West Poorman. So I went to the school. I don't know if you know Metcalf. No. Oh, dang. Did you know like any high schools like Finger and all?

SPEAKER_03 0:50

No, I just um so I lived out there, but then I used to go to House of Hope.

SPEAKER_01 0:54

Yes, I know what that is.

SPEAKER_03 0:55

Yeah, so that was when they went on 119 and then they moved to the mega church. Okay. Salem. Yeah, Salem.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yep, yep, yep. I was it I was in that, yeah. You were a Salem kid? Yeah. Oh, okay. Well, we probably was yeah. We were like we were out there. Yeah, the whole church is all another beast. Right. Like what um high school did you go to? Actually, for so for a bit, we lived in Chicago until I was literally graduated from eighth grade from Metcalf. And then I went, we went to and moved to uh Portage, Indiana. So actually I went to Indiana four years, then we moved right back to the south side of Chicago.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

What was that like?

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Like it was because I feel like you'd be excited coming out of eighth grade to go to high school and then for you to like because I think I was I was gonna actually go to um what does it start with the um it was between was it Gwendolyn Brooks or it was the I forget what it starts, they were the red and the khaki. I don't know. Is it Julian? No, it's not it's not Julian. It's something like kind of way off, but whatever it was, but I was supposed to go to like right Gwendolyn Brooks or somewhere in there. But I'm going to Portage, Indiana. That was it was a culture shock. So, you know, I I it was I was used to seeing like, you know, buildings and it was like a lot of plain fields, a lot of cornfields. Um, not that many people out there, you know, at all. And like basically that whole like part of that town went to the same high school. So 'cause it was close knit, yeah. Yeah, it was nothing around there. So like they were actually building when we came out there, but it was good in a sense that like everybody kind of kept to themselves. So even though like I was like one of the few black kids when I first came there, so it was only like me and like like ten other people and we like stayed yeah, y'all found y'all crew, yeah, band together. Yeah, like by the time we graduated, it was it was a little bit more, but that was like but besides that the school wasn't the worst school, they actually had like really good art programs out there, surprisingly. Like, you know, I d I knew how to throw clay, I found out how to do that, knew how to oil paint after I went to the school watercolor. So you know, a lot of art schools, you know, they start kind of taking out all the curriculum. All the art stuff, yeah. Like later on, but they actually had like all that. Yeah, all of it. Yeah, so that was that was different. So I actually get to learn like a lot. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

What was high school Kayla like? What were you into?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

What was your I well kind of the same stuff. I always like I always took a lot of art classes, always read all the time. Like I was like the librarian's like favorite. Like I I was that kid, like always taking out books, always reading. Um I was I teachers always liked me to an extent and always kept good grades and all that stuff. I wasn't like a kid that slacked off, never like ditched school or anything. Mm-hmm. And I could have graduated early, but my mom was like, No. No. Like you need to go. She's like, uh no, you're gonna stay in school. I'm like, dang 'cause I wasn't gonna be like, I was actually could have left um a junior year, but uh I was like I stayed and stayed and finished out. Yeah, finished out and I just took random art classes.

SPEAKER_03 3:48

Yeah, what was the first thing you remember like being passionate about?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Oh, being passionate about see that I know it's gonna sound like repetitive, but like I've always knew even from like a baby that I was gonna be an artist. Really? Yes. Like you can ask anybody in my family and they like, okay, Kayla's gonna be an artist. Like I was that kid, like every like Christmas it was give me like paper supplies. Like give me art supplies, yeah. That's all I wanted. So every time it was always just that. And I would like, of course, like I said, read and I want books and then art. That was it.

SPEAKER_03 4:22

That was it. Yeah you knew.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Yeah, I just knew. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:25

And then what were some of like I guess the artists that you were looking at or looking to? Were you being inspired or you just like knew for yourself?

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Like, yeah, I'm always new for myself. And I was always into like, you know, cartoons, like I said, graphic novels and all that stuff. So I was actually more leaning towards not the more traditional aspect. I wasn't in the fine art scene like at all. I didn't like know most fine art, which is crazy now to think about it, because that's what I'm doing. That's where you're at, yeah. Like back then I just knew the the same, like the grace, like oh Da Vinci or you know, mm-hmm those. But that was kinda where it stopped at. But actually I knew more illustrators and like animators, like all the like the Chuck Joel, the Hannah Barber or Disney. So that was where I kind of was like at. And even with like graphic novels, I was always like Mike Magnola. So that was like later I had to like learn because I was more in the illustrative part and I was actually gonna be an illustrator. Oh wow. And then later on it was like, okay. That makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 5:22

Cause I think a lot of your work is like this world building. Yeah, yeah. And like, yeah. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

So like I was actually gonna go that route. And then during college, that's when I kinda Where'd you study and like what was that pivot?

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Like how did you come to that?

SPEAKER_01 5:33

Like I was well, after like high school, we moved back and then I went to um American Academy of Art. It's right across the street from the Art Institute. It's like a really Oh nice. It's like it's not the art institute though, but it's like it's like a really small school. It's not even there no more. Okay. Like it was like right on the corner. Do you know, like across the street from like Osaka, like adjacent? No. But I do know what the art institute is. Okay, yeah, you know, yeah. Yeah, so it's like a like on that same block or right across the street from like, you know, on that Michigan area. But that was good, but during the time I was there, like I was studying illustration. And as time went on, I'm drawing everything, they were like, Oh, like you're they kind of look down upon the illustrators, so it was almost like Oh wow. The people who draw bad go to illustration. That's what they kind of you get that feeling when you were there, like so you're not like an artist. You're like uh uh, you know, something you do to like pay the bills, like, oh, for advertisement or something like that, or for like some sh you know, something like that. It's like you know, it's more like it's like devaluing. Yeah, I feel like it's more basic. It's like always 2D. So when I was drawing and stuff or like painting, they were like, Oh, you should go into fine art because you're more advanced. So it's always like that. So it was always that thing like change your major, change your major. And I would hear from like teachers and everything, and I was like, I don't really feel like changing my major. I don't say stubborn, but I wanted to kinda like prove them wrong that you can be uh illustrator and still have some kind of like, you know, technique to your actual craft.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

But that was good and all, but then after a while when I kept going and doing my thing, I kinda like started mixing the two. Yeah. So that's when I was like, okay, let me put like 2D elements, let me put, you know, f like fine art, you know, rendering. And then that's how I kind of like made my style and then that's how it became to be that's what it came to be. So how would you do you do you have a def would you define your style in a certain way or I always call it see it's always like a surrealism to it, but it's like I don't like wanna give it like too light. Cause sometimes it does lean towards more illustrative, sometimes it leans way like conceptual. But it's like not abstract, obviously. But I don't know, like no describe, it's still f very figurative. I would say like afro-surrealism, kinda in that like range, but you know, it can lean towards fantasy, it can lean towards still more like something more real. But I like to like kind of mix of them because I still like to I always have more fantasy mixed with r like, you know, reality. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

That's super cool. And then um you were in school and pivoting towards like you did change your major.

SPEAKER_01 8:09

No, I didn't. You didn't. Okay, so you stuck. Yeah, you didn't listen. I didn't listen, but I did drop out. Oh, okay. I was like, I'm leaving, because I feel like when I was there, like it was that kind of weird, like said that push and pull of like trying to like get me to go in a certain direction. Okay. But I feel like they didn't they weren't gonna give me what I needed to So you left. You said I'm gone. Yeah, I'm I left. And then what was what did you do after that? After that, of course I the best thing that happened actually going to college was meeting other people. So like I got to like You built a little network. Right. So I got to get like a whole bunch of friend group, a whole bunch of art other artists, and then we were like, still want to sell our art or see if we can do it. So we started like, you know, figuring out places like where we can get our art, like not so, but we didn't want to go in a gallery scene yet because we weren't we were nobodies. So we were like, okay, how do we figure out a way to get our like art scene or just like to get a experience? So we started finding places to rent out, and then after that, showing the art that we, you know, so like DIY. Yeah, I basically created it. Yeah, and then after that we started showing it, invited friends from college, teachers, and then after that, you know, people started coming through, started doing my um Instagram page finally. Yeah. And then after that, start getting invited to uh other shows or like doing competitions and stuff.

SPEAKER_03 9:26

Oh wow. And then what do you remember the first piece that you sold and what it was and how much you sold it for?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

I actually was at that show and it was um it had to be about like $200. Yeah, like $200. And I remember um one of our um it was an oil painting teacher, he came, Mr. Yang, and he was like, and then he liked tapping on the church, like, this is good. Yeah, and what year was this? This was oh my god, this is probably I don't want to say, I want to say 20, it was between 2016, 2017, I can't remember which. Okay. And then um, how much does your work sell for now? Well, with that size, like it was about like a what that 18 by 24, so maybe around three, five grand. Come on. For that size, that was what I mean, like that transition from like two, yeah and that's less than that's about a decade.

SPEAKER_03 10:17

Yeah, 10 years of work and you've been able to scale.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Because I think fully I've been doing art like full time. It's been what seven years now? Mm-hmm. Yeah. But like that was the time I was in school, so like it was like eh. Yeah, you know, I couldn't really raise prices like I could, like, now.

SPEAKER_03 10:33

So yeah. And when you say full-time artist, how would you define that?

SPEAKER_01 10:37

Full time to be a full-time artist. No other no other source of income. Yeah. Yeah. So like if I do any like, you know, advertisement work, if I do any so many paintings, any like illustration work, it's just that's what my full income is going to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:58

What advice would you give to an artist that is in that space of trying to be a full-time artist, but also like the realist, like, how does that even yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

So even start off, I feel like you have to have some kind of self-promotion and have like a little bit of business savviness. You know, I feel like a lot of artists jump into it thinking that like, okay, I'm good. So like I'm just gonna like show it like once or twice, and then like everybody's gonna be like, Oh, this is the greatest thing ever, and then they're gonna like start just m raising the prices. And I'm like, it's not that easy, like years of like posting. I was posting almost consistently. If it wasn't once a week, it was almost like every other day, just to get eyes on it, just tagging it, sending out following other um galleries, commenting so they can like see that like who is this? So I was trying to figure out a way to like bridge that gap because a lot of galleries don't really you know, they always say, like, oh, you can send your portfolio No, that doesn't work. They're lying to kids if they're saying like you can senior, you they're not gonna look at it. Let's be real. They it's like things that it's very It's more scouted. It's more scouted and it's a good time we're living in now because social media is so big. And that's where that's the landing space to like exactly they're fine. Everybody's looking at they're looking at online, like no LinkedIn, all that stuff. It's it's Instagram all day. Like they looking through everybody's stuff, they're going through, they send all their DMs through you. That's how you get a lot of like, you know, shows or like get invited to group shows, go out from other states, all that. So I think that's the best thing I would say is like some kind of promotion for yourself and also don't get well, I don't say don't get a bit too big headed because it's like you should be an obvious butt that doesn't matter. Some people still kinda fall into that, especially when you're getting like you know, constant like clientele and all that. But and I would say the other thing is of course don't sign any contracts off the especially when you're new, you don't know what's a lot of times what's happening. So just people are like so happy to get into the gallery that they're starting, you know, signing their life away, if you want to say. And it's like you have to not only read everything, but you know, at this most of the time when you even go to higher positions of the gallery, they're not even right now many contracts. And that might not be a good thing or a bad thing, but a lot of it is agreeing through like word of mouth or like just conversing with each other, like this is what it's gonna be. And then it's just that's it. Yeah, like cross networking or like being plugged in and put on. Yeah, but sometimes the contracts are sometimes worse than a verbal agreement. So like I think I told you before about like how you know say predatory the art world can be, especially with like contracts with like newer artists trying to like take as much as they can. Not only with like money wise, but like yeah, just anything. It can be like don't give your ideas too early. Like I've had I just not too long ago, I just had a um email where they were like trying to s ask me like to send them ideas about certain things. And I'm like, okay, now what if take my yeah, you know, and it's you just gotta be careful, like, you know, it sounds good, you know, different agencies, you know, they're like known for like doing like the most prestigious like stuff, and you're like, why would I send you ideas? And they they're serious, you know, they sign with you and everything, but they're like, hey, if you need anything, you know, if you like get any ideas for something, send them my way. I'm like, okay. No, why would I do that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:22

Like you're just gonna like it.

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, you can cut me out. There's no like there's nothing right there. Like when it's like a like something like that, yeah, you might need a contract, but with other things, like with galleries, when they're like signing like stuff like um getting you to these weird contracts, like twenty paintings for a year, you know, each year you need 20 paintings, or you know, you need to make this amount of money. Don't do that either, or don't do contracts where they give you money up front. Yeah. So like take your time, yeah, take it. Like and allow yourself to don't get into all that. That's like that's when art isn't fun anymore. And then self-promote.

SPEAKER_03 14:57

That's what that sounds like like I'm hearing is like you took the opportunity to just consistently post your work, yeah. Um, and then your audience found you. Um, what would you say to I think a lot of times as we talk about like people being predatory or even being online and seeing something, you can easily take it. And I noticed for you, like when you put out your work, you don't watermark. No, you know, you just put it out there and then it's because it messes up how are you able to like speaking to like an artist who does want to post more, yeah. How um, like what advice would you give to them in in terms of like just being able to like do it and self-promote without the fear of like, oh, somebody's gonna run across and take my scuff, or this is gonna, you know, like how do you navigate that?

SPEAKER_01 15:43

See, that's like the only thing I can think of besides like you know Or how did you navigate it? Well, yeah, you always wanna like make sure like you're tagging, like even your not tagging yourself, but like even like hashtag like your name to make sure even if it comes back, so like even when you still type in my name, like even if it's not watermarked, like all my pieces come up that I've like, you know, to like hashtag Caleb Hathe or Caleb Caleb made art. Mm-hmm. And just to have like some kind of trail so like it can still come back to you because it's difficult nowadays for like nothing not to get you know, stolen or like ripped off a little bit. Yeah. Like I still see like I don't know what art it is. If it's like an artist like in um Brazil right now, like he redoes he does all my pieces over. Oh wow. Like as murals and stuff, like you know, they're not the same quality. But the whole point is that he does almost like every single me and um I don't know if you know the artist Dolk. No. Yeah, but he does both of our pieces and it's like you know, and everybody was like telling me about it. I'm like, I can't really do much because once it's on the internet, you know, somebody can Yeah, they can take that they can take that adaptation or interpret it. And then like do whatever they kind of want with it. It's kinda a thing like same thing with people who like have like their face on the internet and they get like people like say, I hey, I saw somebody with like my like my face tattooed on somebody's body. You can't really like what can you do about that? Like, it's a thing you can't have the you can't fear it as much as you think you can like you should. I mean, yeah, you know. It's like it can be sometimes even promotional, not always, but you know, it was kind of bad in the beginning. Kind of like how you spin it or how you 'cause like in the beginning I would see it every so often. It was only one time I like I've seen like it was actual tattoo artist. And she was actually a known tattoo artist. And that's when I only had like about like five thousand maybe MOS like followers, and then like but she did redesign it, but it was like the same exact like piece that I put. And that's when I was instilling college. Yeah. So I wasn't like big or anything. I it wasn't even in my style that I do now, but it was like a little quick like illustration. Uh it was in black and white, and it was a tattoo of it, almost down to like exactly what I think, but it just wasn't her style, but the composition was the same, like the same little elements, but it was just like I I didn't know what to do. I'm like, dang, like what do I do about that? But it it didn't stop me though. It didn't like detour me like too much. It's almost a thing where you gotta have to like Yeah, it's like flattery.

SPEAKER_03 18:07

Yeah, yeah, in a way, it's like you use it. Um yeah. So for your um what is it, um posting online, have you ever or one have you ever had like a point where I feel like with social media, a lot of people build their platforms off just resharing cool stuff or resharing art. Yeah. And then it becomes like, well, you're using me to promote your thing that you're doing. Like you're not necessarily stealing my work, right? But you're reposting me. And I think now in social media, we don't let people like pass, like we'll be in the comments, make it like entertainment, but like a decade ago, people were just doing like people were getting like famous off of just doing like yeah, almost like not essentially like a fan page, but almost kind of like exactly and just making like tons of content. Yeah, so have you had to navigate that or like what is or even in today's I think I've only seen it.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

Only time I've I've it kind of happens because I'm not really on TikTok like that. Like, but that's the only time I kind of see it like um where they'll like have like a but they do kind of make it like a fan page. So I kinda like uh I'm kind of giving a little bit of like leading it's not I'm not too worried about it. I haven't I think only seen it once, and I and good thing I have somewhat of a following because they did do what you just said, like everyone. We know that's clear like no, kind of badly like it came and attacked the person and they took it down. I was like, oh dang. Like, it's okay, Haley, we took care of it. I'm like, oh god. Like I don't want to like send people out there like to attack people, but yeah, it it does become like I feel bad for like if it's happened to like like smaller artists because they don't have like as much of a fan base that's gonna kind of come and correct it and exactly, or they don't have control, like even to the point where you know I've seen somebody have like let's say like 5,000, 3,000 followers, and then the people who are stealing their content might have like you know 10. And it's like they couldn't report them enough because they're like, hey, like this person has more than you. So like are you sure you're the you're the that's like yeah. Like, what do you do? Like I don't I'm so what would you say to that younger artist though? That's like that's that's yeah, that's that's difficult because it's like you don't want to tell them like to like you can't like scrap it, but at the same time, only thing I could think of is like find a different way of going about posting. Cause I know I had to do it with only like once with a person and I had to um only post I think I only had to post on um TikTok. Okay. Like certain videos, and I couldn't post it on Instagram because I didn't even know Instagram had it where you can like literally save a whole like video or a picture. I'm like, oh I didn't even know you know my ticks heavy at all. I didn't know you can just take a whole like and download it. But so that's what they were doing, like downloading all my the videos and like putting them on TikTok. But the only way I got around that was only like posting certain videos directly on TikTok, so mine would be first. Yeah, so just like limiting, yeah. Yeah, so it was like that was the only way I can get around it. Like only videos on TikTok if I wanted to do a post of like a painting only on Instagram. So I had to like diversify like how I post it. No, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 21:17

So it's like the takeaway is like, you know, don't be defeated, but like get no get more creative and find another to go about it. But ultimately, if you do the work and you keep being consistent, you're gonna build that fan base of people who are gonna know your work, recognize it, and you don't have to worry about it.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

You don't have to worry about it as much.

SPEAKER_03 21:36

Yeah, you are self-managing. Yes. Can you talk about what that means? And like why? Why why have you chosen to not have a sign to an agency or be a have a manager? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

The problem with me is not as much as what other people I've heard people have really good, you know, relationships with their managers, like I've a lot of artists, but I just haven't been lucky to find Like a really good manager, it's always turns or agency, it always turns into more of a control thing. Like, especially when it comes to like funds and everything. It's like, you know, when a manager obviously they make money a lot of times when you make money. Yeah. So it turns into like, oh, like get as much work out so I can get paid. And that's kind of where it kinda always rubbed me the wrong way with getting the managers. So and then the the thing that helped me too was in the beginning, since I was so I had a somewhat of a fan base already. Yeah. People were asking, like, oh, okay, like can I have this painting or whatever? And I knew how to have to make invoices and then I had to send it out. And I found how to do like links without watching YouTube videos and stuff. So that kind of helped, you know, give me like where I kind of knew how to do stuff already. So then I became You were empowered. Yeah, you were like, Yeah. Same thing with like shipping stuff, like you know, I had to figure out like how to ship something like correctly, how to wrap correctly, how to frame correctly to send something off. So by the time I was already like even making a certain amount of money, like it's like I'm not gonna share it right. I'm not gonna share. I'm doing it, yeah, yeah. The only thing I would do have is I have um Rachel Nell. So she's answering like my emails. You have an assistant. You have an assistant, right? So like that's been good, but like I said, even then, like if she needs to run something by me, she still has to come through me and say, like, hey, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

And do you see that as like something that works? Do you see you want a manager?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

Do you feel like it's we'll see. If it's like if we can make like if it's a really good trade-off and I can see like a some kind of regression from what I'm doing, a manager wouldn't seem too bad, especially with moving with certain like fields, like things that I don't like haven't been there before. Like people start going to like blue chip galleries and museums, maybe, and even then, like I can always send stuff to like lawyers, like look over through other people that I might know. Yeah. Like, hey, look over this really quick, you know. So get around like getting a manager manager, you know.

SPEAKER_03 23:51

That's amazing, and I think very like um inspiring to know that like yes, I can put out yeah this level of work and still handle all the back end admin. Yeah, but then also I'm keeping a hundred percent when I'm not splitting myself. Right. And so I feel like as an artist, it's good, it's rare, yeah. Oh no. Yeah, so shout out to you for that and holding it down. Thank you. I personally hope you stay without a manager for as long as you can and then if you do, you have people that are more like project managers. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 24:23

Like you insert things, like exactly when I can do something.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's super cool. Um, what advice would you give to that artist that is thinking about signing? You talked about it a little bit, but um what should like what feels right when signing it to an agency or to a manager? Is there like should is one over the other? Like what yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Like, I feel like and I know it's like cliche to say like follow your like if you feel something is like off, but you will be surprised how many times people have said they felt something off and they still sign something like so I still say it anyway, because I'm people like, you know, it felt wrong, but I'm like, I'm gonna, you know, it might be good. I'm like, no, that's not good. No, yeah, listen to yourself, yeah. Like it's underrated to say that, but well not underrated, it's almost overrated, but you know, I feel like you should kinda listen to when something feels like if it feels like it's too much work, if it feels like sketchy, it probably is. You know, like I told you, if it's like something, if you feel like they're taking more than what they need to be taking, you should probably like speak up. 'Cause I feel like that's another thing that's not talked about enough in the art realm. It's like, you know, you can kinda go back and forth, you can kinda like not say compromise, but you can You can negotiate. You can negotiate, exactly. Like you don't have to you know, they say it's like one way, like, oh, it's fifty fifty. But then you get talked long enough. If you have a somewhat of a little bit of a pull, if you have a you know you have the clientele, it's like they'll kinda sway a little bit more than you think they would, but they're kinda hoping you don't speak up. So it's best to just still speak up just in case 'cause they might just I've got out of deals where it was like a whole fifty fifty split and I'm like, hey, like, look, I know a collector of mine's gonna buy it, so we can just I mean it's cute that it's in the you know, whatever gallery or scene it is, but like Yeah, but I'm moving the work, right? I'm moving the work. So like you can get some of it, but you're not taking fifty, you're not really gonna promote it. Like it's already probably sold. And that's not to be like cocky about it, just I n just know it is. It's like it's just right now it's just sitting. Yeah, it's just sitting in the space. Now it's there are galleries that are like with like way like in different you know, environments where I won't even be able to touch. So that'd be different. But when it's like your local gallery down the street, you're already selling pretty consistently between a five thousand, twenty thousand dollar range, it's like uh like I think I can just we can you can do something, you can probably take a little bit, but not you're not taking fifty percent of the work.

SPEAKER_03 26:55

Yeah. And what's that negotiation like look like for you? Like, are you at a point where if you are doing something in partnership, are do you have a non-negotiable? Or of like I at least want 60. Yeah. I at least want majority of it.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

It depends. Like, if it's I've I think the most I've gotten like from like a regular like a gallery from like negotiating is usually like a 70-30. Let's go. Yeah. Cause I'm like, at this point it's Yeah. Yeah. It's me. Yeah, it's me. Yeah. But at the same point, but if it's like if it's somewhere I I always tell people if it's if you're in a different space and you're moving to a different like area, different, like say you're moving up, you're like going to that blue chip or whatever, maybe. And I'm not saying just give them your money because they're blue chip. Don't I'm not saying that, but you know, you all star somewhere, we all have to like move up. Like I've been there with the fifty-fifty, you know, and then I got to a point where it was fifty-fifty of two hundred thousand. I'm like, okay, you know, one hundred grand, one hundred grand, that's that's what is crazy. Yeah. And it's like, you know, what are you doing that I can't do? Oh, we're shipping the work. Okay, I can ship my own work. Now, if I ship my own work, how much is that right? You know, it's like it doesn't make as much sense as, you know, they think it does. And if you start talking about it more, they're like, you know, they they'll they'll they won't argue with it. They're like, yeah, they know that it's ridiculous. Yeah. They're like, oh, we can work something out, and it's usually what it comes down to. You just have to like kind of like speak up for yourself. Don't be afraid to speak up and negotiate. Yeah. Now that's great advice. You know, you know, like some people are scared of like getting like blackballed out of the art world, you know, but at the same time, if you have a nice bit of clientele, they'll probably still rock what you're doing.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

Have you been able to nurture your collectors? And like as a black artist, how important is it for your collectors to reflect your own identity?

SPEAKER_01 28:46

At first, I did, I'm not gonna lie, you know. So at first it was like that kind of thing, like especially when it was more like I won't say like darker stories or like certain things that only like sensitive, right? Right, sensitive topics, or anything that I know like only like us black folks would know what was happening or like certain subject matter. But as time went on, I saw like how different pieces touched certain people. So it was like a thing I didn't want to like gay keep, something that I knew that people would like. And then not only that, but it was a certain time after a while my collectors kind of moved in a different direction anyway. You know, they were always kind of like it was always a mix up anyway, but it was a time where like it was all like, you know, I would have like a lot of black people with other and like an ethnicities with by the work, and then sometimes I would have a show where like most of them would be like like all black. Like for the show, actually from this show right here. Um remember the time. We made it a I I came to um when I worked at Thinkspace, we're at Think Space, and I told him I'm like, hey, I want, you know, 'cause the subject matter. And I'm like, hey, can we find a way to, you know, let them understand? I'm not gonna be like, oh, we're not gonna tell them, we're gonna tell 'em. Yeah. Like, you know, just so everybody knows everybody's, you know, squared away, so we're not like doing some weird, like, no, you can't have it, and not getting reason.

SPEAKER_03 30:04

But being intentional and being okay with like speaking up about that. Exactly. And so where you're at now, is it like Yeah, is it kind of like, hey, if you want the piece, yeah, you can have it. Or are you at a point where some of the pieces that you create, you're like, I really want this to be.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

It depends. Like for the most part, if a piece really resonates with somebody, I'll just let you know, you can you can purchase it. But it are it is those pieces, even if it doesn't, but it works out a lot of times. Okay. Cause then what happened, like like when the show that I just did in October, like, you know, piece the piece with all the three girls and then people were like, I have daughters. And then the person went to, you know, they're like, I got daughters, I need that piece. Or like the other piece were, you know, the sewing of the lands and like, you know, being a helper, trying to help everybody community kinda come together. A teacher bought it. She's like, I need that piece 'cause that's me. And like and it usually works out more than, you know, I haven't had recently any like where it was like so far off, like where somebody's like, I want this piece and it's like some dark subject matter, they don't know what it's about. Usually people kind of get where they wanna like what they want to collect and they kinda know what story they want like placed in their environment. So they kind of almost like navigate themselves. It works out anyway, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Last year you hosted a solo show. Yeah. Can you talk about like why did you chose to host it by yourself independently and not work in partnership? And then what did that take?

SPEAKER_01 31:34

Yeah, navigating it, it was one of the hardest things. I'm not even gonna lie. Like it was still, is it worth what the galleries in 50% 50? No. But is it like was it like a nice bit of work? Did I have to like, was it a lot of sleepless nights? Yes. Was I stressed out?

unknown 31:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

So did I miss out on like not hanging out with friends? Yeah, but it was worth it because I just wanted to see if I could do it. Mm-hmm. You know, it was a lot to put together, getting the collectors in order, you know, getting everything, like all the pieces done in time, getting them all framed, pricing them, sending out emails. So it was even though it was a lot of work, it was definitely worth it in the end. But I definitely decided to do it because I felt like I was trying to, in a way, of course I want to do it for myself, but I also want to show artists that it could be done.

SPEAKER_02 32:28

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

You know, it's something like it's it's a definitely a feat in itself, like to do it, but it's definitely doable. Right. Even if you need help. Like I still have like, you know, like Joe, my friend, like he helped hang the pieces. Mm-hmm. He got paid, so don't he didn't do freebies. But the whole point is, you know, I had to get like help, like I said, even in other even with promotion, like other people promoted it. You guys all promoted it for me, so and I of course I did it myself too, but you know, just to help out a little bit. But besides that, I feel like would I do it again? Yeah. You know, the thing where I'm like, I'm so scarred, like I would never do this. But but you proved it to yourself. I proved it to myself.

SPEAKER_03 33:04

It's like I can be this high level or whatever however you know people are seeing you, but like my work is selling for 20, 30, 40,000, and and I don't have to be in collaboration, like I can do it all myself and handle the shipping, handle the vacuum.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

You just have to know like how to manage it in a way like even like people get like scared about expenses. If you're selling somewhat consistently and like you have to take into account like each other that shipping price, so like if it is a like a you know, thirty thousand dollar piece, you know, even if it might take like you know, a thousand dollars to ship it, but it's like that's not the worst, you know.

SPEAKER_03 33:45

Yeah, if based off what you're making from it, it's like okay, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Now I made twenty nine thousand or something.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

Yeah, how much did the show cost you if you're comfortable sharing? How much did it cost and then how much did you make?

SPEAKER_01 33:56

The renting of the actual space, I went out in it for like about a week, I think. Oh, it's a week? Oh. It was something like that. It was something like that. Well, that's including seven. Yeah, pre-production, yep, yep, yep, and then tear down, yeah. So like that was uh five, but uh you ran by the hour, so five grand. So like so I was doing like what was it like four? No, not four, like five hours each day, something like that. And then like the for the setup days I went a little bit longer just in case. So I overpaid just because I was just just to make sure like Yeah, you was good. You had the yeah, exactly. But they were real cool. I can't think of the address right now because I was gonna do a shout-out. But yeah, but they were really cool. Like a really good space. It was a big space, you know, everything was wet, like almost over. It was nice, yeah. It was like about what fifteen, I think, fifteen hundred square feet. It was a nice space, so 'cause I was trying to find different spots. All of them were like I know, yeah, yeah. Like in ten grand for like, and I'm like, no. Right. Yeah, like I mean, could I have done it, yeah, but I'm like, I don't feel like Yeah, I don't have to. I don't have to. Yeah, there's something better for me.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What are other costs? It wasn't just rent in the space. I know the rent in the space was Or just give like a ballpark to compare like what you actually made.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

From renting the space, shipping. I got a deal on shipping, so that's another thing. Cause I got to do the like where they do the art, like drop-off, so they pick up all the pieces and do it. That was a collect. If somebody knew somebody who knew somebody, that was like a thousand for like fifteen paintings. So that was that was a big one. Oh wow. Okay, so we had six stacks. So the R6, and then about if you the panels, see those panels I collected over a year, so I wouldn't even know like the amount, like some of them I had. In terms of your canvas? Yeah, my canvas and everything. Okay. So I I mean if I do like how many were in the show? Fifteen. So but let's say like about let's say two. Okay. Say two thousand four. So eight thousand. Yeah, eight thousand. Let's just like if I round it, maybe ten. Ten. But for what I made it nothing. Total, it was probably around uh what like eighty.

SPEAKER_03 35:56

Come on.

SPEAKER_01 35:57

Yeah. Yeah, it's not bad. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 36:00

All by yourself. And if you would have done it in collaboration, it would have been a full. Yeah, and you're doing all the work. Yeah. Yeah. So that's super inspiring. Congrats.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Yeah, I was there and it was so beautiful. And I feel like obviously for you, it was like you were also managing sales. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:16

Yeah. Rachel came because she was like, I'm gonna come. And I'm like, okay. Then I'm like, wait, who's gonna manage sales? Yeah, I'll do it. On those other days, yeah. Because I don't feel like, you know, having to do like walk around, talk, be the host, and take sales, you know, it's a lot. Yeah. So you still have to have like a little bit of, you know, a little bit of help is fine. But like for the most part, yeah. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 36:38

That's what's up. Yeah, yeah. Um, how do you navigate saying yes and then saying no, like in this season?

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Well when I was when I first started, it was different because I was. Yeah, yes, everything. I'm out here, I'm out here. Yeah. I need money, like I need I need promotion. Um, but I I was saying yes, but I never did anything for free. That's one thing I feel like um some people need to know. Like, just because, you know, it's an opportunity. Don't just say yes just to get like any kind of promotion. You still need to get paid. You know, your time is still, you know. It's valuable, yeah. So like that's the only thing. The no came easier as time when things got busy. I'm like, no. Yeah. And then it feels bad because I knew something. It's almost like you have to still believe in yourself enough to know like something else is gonna come along. Don't think like, like, oh dang, if I don't say if I don't say yes to this, like like the world. Don't think in like that scarcity mindset. Like you're gonna like you're gonna fall off the face of everything because it's like you're not being seen 24-7. Yeah, so I feel like you have to still have kind of some kind of confidence in yourself to know to know what you wanna like and then also be very like mindful of your time. Like, you don't if you're tired, don't don't keep adding on, even though people might say, Well you do it. I know how to still manage my time. Yeah, yeah. Enough to know like what I can and cannot do. So if it's getting too busy, I'll say no, even if I want to do it. Like I've had times like, dang.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Or like a no not right now.

SPEAKER_01 38:06

Yeah, or yeah. That's always tell people like don't give him a full no if you really wanted to do it. Tell them like, you know, it's not the best time, but like the best time, you know, I'm busy, but you know, if you if you ever want to do that, if you're doing it the next year, like I would definitely be down, you know. Don't be afraid to say that. You know, you can say no, but also have a leave that door open. Cause you never know it might just come back around.

SPEAKER_03 38:27

Yeah. What does your artistic practice look like? Like, how do you create, like, when do you know it's done? Like, cause your is involved. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I got a chance to go to your studio once, but I was just like, Yeah.

unknown 38:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:41

And he's like, Yeah, I'm gonna do this and I'm working on this. And I'm just like, wow.

SPEAKER_01 38:45

Yeah, I feel like mine is like, I feel like everybody has a we already know our different artists have like different ways of doing stuff. It's I'll see something and like the inspiration will be like really quick. It's not like uh, I don't know, it's like I don't think too much about it. It's almost it does it does come very natural. So I'll like have a picture of what I want in my mind and I'll like hurry before I forget it. I'll like jot it down. It's like the worst sketch. Like people might say, like, you're an artist. Like it's like So you sketch first. Yeah, it's like a quick, like it's not even like a good sketch, like just to get like an idea of what I want to do. Like, I'll be like, okay, I want this like right here, this cure right here. I want this thing, like this kind of pose, I want this to feel this way, and I'll like write down like notes of like what I want like this to feel like. I'll like write down notes or like a really quick color palette like scheme on a you know, yeah, because you've seen it and then it's like okay, now I'm gonna see how I want it to look, you know, even though it'll it'll it'll eventually change. Like, don't get me wrong, it's not gonna look exactly like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like this is where I'm starting. Right, but this is where I'm starting. It's get just to get an idea of what I want, and then the actual process of it actually like transforming to something else is usually when I'm actually painting. So like I'll have like an idea, like, okay, I want like this piece is like blue. Like that I'll have like this the feeling of it is blue. Like when I did um with the sorrow starful tune, I knew like it needs to be blue. Like it needs to like be a lot of blue. I knew I felt like it needed to be like kind of somber, but it still have like this like really like chill feel to it. I knew I wanted that like feeling and that mood. So that happened first. And then while I'm painting, you know, of course you add like you know some red hair because you you know you want the composition to still flow. But it's like you just have to know like what you want the piece to do, like or what it like how you want to move around to paint. And I you know, like I I love color, so like I'll add, I always think like I was gonna be these two colors, and then it's like I started. Oh yeah. But I still kinda want to keep it somewhat ground. So I'll it still has a color scheme. It still has like a, you know, where everything kind of plays off each other. And then when I'm done, that's like I'm not that people think I'm a f perfectionist. I'm not. Okay. I like leave stuff like running like the bottom of the paint, and like it might look good, you know, it looks good and everything, but it's more it's not that sensitive. It's not, yeah, I I'm not as um sensitive. I've I know a lot of artists who are very like particularly particular about their work. I'm not, I'll see the piece, I'll do I keep doing like a step back. Like, I mean, I'm oh no, a lot of people haven't seen me paint. That's why I don't like doing murals as much. Because I can't step back from the piece, like to like see what I'm saying. And then I'll do my head turn, then I'll paint, then I'll like lean all the way back in the chair, or I'll like stand up and walk back and sit back down. You know, it's like it's like a constant like trying to see, like, okay, this needs more over here. This needs like to balance it out. Because I want my composition to be somewhat, you know, balanced. Everything has to work the way it does, it has to play off each other to make it like yeah, cohesive and yeah, like I'll be able to do it.

SPEAKER_03 41:35

So for you, it being done is like a feeling. Yeah, it's a feeling, it's a feeling, and then you just yeah, you kind of know.

SPEAKER_01 41:40

Yeah, like I'm not and then I'm also a person like I'm gonna have to walk away from it for more bit. Like some people are like, Oh, I need to keep like working. I'm like, no, no, I just like put it away, don't let me see it for a bit. And then I'll revisit and then maybe I don't know, I don't remember revisiting it. You know, I'm like coming back and I'm like to see how it fit looks good. Okay. Cause like the piece I just did, the one with um the show with Drew, when I did it, I was like happy doing it. Then when I looked at it, I'm like, why does it seem weird to me? And then I like I like left it in the back for a bit, and then when I saw it, I was like, that's that's so beautiful, that's a beautiful thing. Yeah, I was like, oh god, like I created that. But it's almost like something I can't have to take myself out of it and like because when you're seeing it all day, you don't think of it like it doesn't look like the full picture yet. But then when I like let it rest for a bit and I can come back to it, I can see like okay, it's like brand-wise, I can see like okay, this finish.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Yeah, where are you pulling your um inspiration from in terms of like the worlds that you build? Because I always wonder, like, yeah, are these real people? No, that that they're like that you know that it starts from. Yeah, yeah. Um, because there's always so much like I don't know, they're just yeah, just beautiful people. And you're just like they're not real.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

They're not real, but like like people who was like who told me? I was like, it was um, was it Fanny? I think it was Fanny. I know, you know, Fanny, yeah, yeah. And she was like saying, I like the way you paint kids, they're always so round. Yeah, yeah. And I like that I do make them like it's like a chibi sense to them. Like they're not fully chibi flight fied, but they're like they still have an element. I still pull back from like that, you know, animation, illustration vibe of like, like people don't know, like the their heads are actually like a little bit bigger than the rest of their body, even if they're or if their eyes might be a little bit bigger, they're not completely human looking, they're not proportional as people think they are, because I still want them to have a cute element. That's that illustrator. Yeah, exactly. Like I still want to put push like different elements, even like with the shadows, like even when like when I was for the show, uh, some college students came to and I was like, I got a little scared because I'm like, oh dang, they're you know, they're fresh, so they're gonna be like pointing out stuff. And they did. They're like they're like, you know, this looks good and all, but like your shadows don't make sense. I'm like, no, they don't need to, but they it gives the It works. She was saying she's like, It works, but it's like not I said, Yeah, it doesn't need to be correct 'cause it, you know, once again, you know what how everything feels. You know I have to make like a balance of everything. Same thing with the kids, like I could make them really realistic and make them like, you know, look exactly like a real kid, but it's like, uh, you have your own like style to it.

SPEAKER_03 44:08

But I think the figures that they're like, I feel like I would know this kid, right? Like it's very familiar. And then and to know that those are all essentially just people that you're figures that you've seen in your head and then now draw it out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

And then you might change like a little bit, because some figures do resemble each other a little bit. And I'll like have to change like the nose a bit or change the eyes or something, like the lip shape might change. And then like even with the backgrounds, I'll like pool stuff. Like, you know, I'm like I told you, I was always into like animation, graphic novels. So a lot of that like fantasy element, a lot of that stuff comes right back. It always comes back to my. And of course, I love nature stuff too, so that's why a lot of the backgrounds and everything kind of symbolize like that kind of feel of, you know, like I love flowers, I love animals, so it it just goes.

SPEAKER_03 44:53

It's all the things that you love, and you're just kind of yeah, continuously not say like repurposing, but like they're showing up, right? But in like new, fresh area.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Yeah, I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to paint as much as I do if I didn't enjoy what I was painting. Yeah, what I was paying.

SPEAKER_03 45:11

Yeah. Yeah. And then are you? I know for some times with artists, specifically maybe writers or even musicians, it's like, I gotta be sad, you know, that's where I get my best work. Or you know, for you, or more so better, better way of saying it of like, is there advice that you would give to that visual artist of how to develop that discipline to just create beyond emotion? Cause I think a lot of times it is, and I feel like you locked in. You probably gotta schedule it's like I'm paying every day.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Like when I like when I talk about different um talk to different artists about this, because like I know everybody else is like a little different. Like I feel like I'm the worst when I'm not doing anything. If I can't, like if I don't create, I get like jittery. Okay. Like I'm like, um, it becomes like more I get more sad doing it that way than I I rather be sad and then go paint than to just be like just sitting in my feelings, which that can be I don't know what that means, but you know but I'd rather actually do something because it's like I'm doing something. Yeah, I'm creating and I get actually happiest when I'm creating. But I don't have I don't really have slow days. If it's slow days, it's more because I'm just burnt out. But it's like Yeah, it's like that moment of rest. It's more of like a rest thing. It's not like more of like a happy or sad. Cause I've painted some of my best pains when I'm sad, I've painted some of my best pains when I was happy. But I don't I don't really like stop what I'm doing because of it. If anything, like I said, it becomes like more locked in, like, oh I'm sad, like never I know I really gotta go paint. It's like that. It's like I never get um like like bored or like not even say bored, but just like disgusting, I can't I can't paint today, I'm I'm too sad. Well yeah, committed to the craft, yeah. That's what it sounds like. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

Being able to push through, um, and then kind of having like a a schedule for yourself, yeah, and not breaking that. Yeah, and then seeing what comes out of it. Well, breaking it, I break it.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

Well, it the thing, like, it gets broken only if I'm like, okay, I'm tired. Like I said, it's been I've been painting for like four days, and it's like I went out, so my social battery is like done. So like now I'm like, do I want to paint? Don't like today, you know, yeah, like that moment of um rest and self-care.

SPEAKER_03 47:15

Um, but you do have a routine that you're disciplined about. Yeah. And I think like as an artist, that maybe sometimes can get lost because it is the feel of it. It's like a lot of times, I would say, just speaking about musicians, it's that, oh, I've been in a rut, and this music has kind of helped me process. Exactly. And so now that's what my art is. And it sounds like for you, it's like it's life. Yeah, like whether I'm in up, down, I'm committed to this practice. Yeah. So yeah, you've um stayed in Chicago through it all. Yeah. Why? Because I love my city.

SPEAKER_01 47:52

I love my trick question. No, no, it was no, you know, that is because lately people have been kind of like trying to hate on Chicago. Like, I love Chicago. I love the people, I love the food, I love the neighborhoods. Like, I don't care what anybody says, like, I love my city. Chicago. Yeah. Like, I mean, like, people always ask me if I'm gonna move. Every time I go out to LA, every single time. I don't know why LA people think I want to move to L.

SPEAKER_03 48:18

I mean, we we do have a um, we do have a way of going out to LA. Chicago is right, like historically, we do go out there.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Some of us come back, but yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, um, yeah, if it if I did move, I wouldn't, I it wouldn't be somewhere like wouldn't be West Coast, definitely. Of all places, no. Like, I would move to the South or East Coast before I do West Coast. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:44

The South, where?

SPEAKER_01 48:45

I don't know. I love Louisiana. We talked about the four. I love I love a few states. I don't know. Texas, everybody moving to Texas now. I feel like it's overcrowded. I wouldn't want to move to the house. Independent, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like it's a different kind of heat. It's a different kind of thing. Different kind, right. You know, and it's like, um, my actually most of my family actually is from Alabama. Okay. So I've like some parts from like my mom's side is Alabama, dad's side is from, you know, it's like a little mix up. Some Texas, some um Atlanta. People always tell me.

SPEAKER_03 49:14

I could see you off on a little lake house. Yeah. Just secluded, working on your in like, oh yeah, the pieces are shipper from the lake. It's in the lake house.

SPEAKER_01 49:21

Yeah, yeah. So like even like said, I would do something like that. But West Coast is I don't know, it's just a different feeling. I feel like the people are different. I don't know how to describe it, but I don't know. I just don't really care for it. I don't know. Look, you have to. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:37

Yeah, like you said, going being able to go out there to work, but knowing that like you have everything you need right where you are. And as much as you are, you know, growing and yeah, moving as an artist, it's like Chicago is good for what you're doing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:51

And it's a thing where it's like not just a surround, it's like a definitely again, like a feeling to it. Like everything, every city has its own like little vibe to it. I feel like Chicago is definitely as much as we can get rowdy, we're still very chill. In a sense, we still have like a different kind of humbleness that I enjoy a little bit more than moving to going to other cities or like it's not as much as a rat race here as it is like if you go to like let's say New York. And I actually like New York, but it's um it is kind of Yeah, it's like it's over yeah, yeah. Hustle. It's a different it's a different kind of hustle. Okay. Yeah, well I love my um New York people, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

What's something no one knows about you creatively? Like what else should you be doing?

SPEAKER_01 50:30

Uh something creatively.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

Yeah. Or even just like, you know, um pastimey. Because you don't just be drawing and making beautiful art all the time.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

No, I love okay, you know, I don't know if that's even creative though. I love video games. I love Yes. I love video games. Get into the next levels? Yeah, I love the game. Super creative. But the thing about video, I have to stop for a bit because it's like You a gamer? I'm not not not like that. Okay, I used to be more like definitely like I was into like the RPGs and all that stuff. And that was just like time for something like you're talking about like 10 hours on a game, and I'm like, I'm my life is like wasted. Like I feel like I'm like, if you're not a streamer, you're gonna be a good one. I was doing it even before you know. Before that, yeah. But even like now, like, you know, if I like like I got a PlayStation and like I'll finish like a game and then like I'll just like sit there and I'm like, okay, now I won't touch it, and I didn't touch it for like a year. Okay. Which is crazy because I used to like play like all the time, but I'm like, it's like I don't feel like it's a waste of time. But I 'cause I do love games. But it's like I feel like I can be doing other stuff. Maybe I'm getting older. Like if it's like, well, yeah, maybe you feel like you've aged out of it or whatever. I don't feel like it's like I aged it's like more like it's just I guess finding like something more productive to like I do like say I like doing it every now and then, like to pastime. Like if I like okay, I have an an hour of like just chilling, I can just Yeah, it's like self-care. Right. And then like do that real quick, jump back in to do something else. Like I can do that. But besides that, yeah, I love gaming. I do like cooking. I love cooking. But like I've been trying to still find time, but that even that takes forever. Especially if you want to be like, oh, I'm doing everything from scratch.

SPEAKER_03 52:14

Oh, you oh you be on that kind of time.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

That's the way I grew up though. My mom's gonna be like, that's what I'm gonna say. Yeah. So like I don't know anything else. I'm like, this is like a whole to do like a whole like Schmorgens board, like it's gonna take me like three, four hours. I'm like, dang. I mean, it can taste good, but then after a while you don't even want to eat all of it because you just worked. Right. You like these leftovers. Yeah, you're like, no, no, you I mean I'll eat off because you were tasting it while you're cooking it. I'm not like I'm like, I don't really gotta Oh yeah. Like, I mean everybody else is enjoying it, but I'm like, I'm done. Right, I'm done. I didn't had all my tasting it for like three hours. I'm like, I'm good. Yeah. Yeah. That's like pretty much it. Like, I mean, I'm I'm pretty like chill when it comes to everything. Like, I love like my animals, even though I'm down to one now. We might get a dog though. Okay, because one of them passed. Oh, I dunno. Sorry. No, you're good. She was old. Glad I got to meet her though. Yeah, you did, yeah. She was old though. Oh, you said that when I she was 19. Yeah. Cause she stayed upstairs and she didn't come and sound like her. Like, we had to start picking her up. We were like picking her up, and then we were carrying it, and she would like, you know, meow at the bottom of the stairs, and then like basically I'm ready to go upstairs and we have to pick her up. Right. And then carry upstairs. It was a life well lived. Yeah, no, she's a good one. And y'all may get a dog. Yeah, we might get a dog. I'm thinking about getting a dog, but I'm like, I kind of wanna, once the little one that we have, if she when she goes, I might take a break for a little bit. Cause I don't think I wanna jump right back in with another animal. Right. Cause, you know, she's alive. We were gonna get another like a dog while we had her, but I'm like, That's chill. Yeah, we might just chill for a bit. I don't think I can survive another. Like those are Yeah, and then um, what is it?

SPEAKER_03 53:51

I threw like cats are more like independent.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Dogs are like they want you the one that like they want you to like the one that passed, she wasn't, she was like care care for me, pet me, do all the things, yeah. The baby. She was like like my baby. That was my child. Like I birthed her. Like that was my child. I birthed her. Like I've we had her since we she was a few months. What was her name? Sprinkles. Sprinkles. Such a like I know it's so like a preparation. R. I P Sprinkles. I know, yeah. I love my baby. Maybe she'll show up in the piece. I know. Yeah, maybe. But no, she was really she was like a sweet cat. She wasn't like I mean you you saw her. She doesn't really like she doesn't attack or anything or anything like that. She was chill. But um and she yeah, she was a really like sweet cat, but the one we got now, she's she's a little spawned of it. A little firecracker. But yeah, but but every but no, besides that, you know, I love animals. Um, I was actually gonna get different ones. When I was even younger, I was like gonna get a ferret and I was gonna get like a hamster. But I didn't because my parents was like, No. Okay. And they always kept like fish and like we kept birds. Okay. But after that I was like, okay.

SPEAKER_03 54:56

Oh yeah, you're definitely gonna be on a lake house with all your animals and all your get a little farm.

SPEAKER_01 55:01

Like little um Billy goats.

SPEAKER_03 55:04

Beyond the canvas though, like you've your work has taken sh shape and form through sculptures and figures. Yeah. Can you talk about that? Of like what g went into that process and like yeah, where are you at now? Because I think the one that you added to your show was like that was a pretty big one.

SPEAKER_01 55:22

No, that was a that was a nice size piece. I wanted to make more, but the problem is with sculpture, it's like so I don't say it's like tedious like a tedious process. And like even like moving it around, it's so so bulky, you know, like to get like enough like things to get it protected, to like keep moving it. If you have to bring it up for a show. And even like shipping, it's like you already know what happened to the piece, but the shipping is it gonna become such an issue. Like I do like it, but I'm trying to figure out a way to navigate going forward so I don't have as many like problems.

SPEAKER_03 55:59

And for the sculptures, those are like more of the bigger ones. Yeah. And then for the figures, like what what can you talk about like what went into that? Why was that the figure selected? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:11

Because I feel like with that one, like, because I knew And I feel like I kind of saw you as like one of the first ones. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 56:17

Like to do the figures, and then now it's almost kind of like it's an extension of how people want to now express the art. Right. So in the next form, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Yeah, because I knew I wanted that piece. First of all, it was a very popular piece, and I love that piece. That was like an old piece. It was from um when I did a it wasn't a solo, it was a dual show with um Debbie. And I knew I wanted that piece. That was like the star of that show for like my section.

SPEAKER_02 56:42

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 56:43

And I didn't wanted to get that as like a form, like a figure. Because it was just like it was just so perfect the way it was just like one like standing up. It was just the like the little little spalooches and the little um it was inspired by um Akira, the, you know, the the graphic novel and everything. So I knew I wanted to I knew that was gonna be the piece to make because I knew that would be also a thing that like not only was special to me, but I knew a lot of people resonated with like you know, the whole like manga anime kind of situation. So when I made the piece, I knew that one was gonna be the one like that would become a figure. Yeah, become a figure like instantly. Yeah, but that and that was years later, because remember like the piece was made like 2017. So it was to make it like the actual figure was what 2020. I think we were doing a production of it. And then to like go on, it took like three years to come out because wow, all the COVID stuff was happening, and then we didn't know production was gonna be right, and then it came out way later than what it was supposed to.

SPEAKER_03 57:38

But and what material did it ended up with?

SPEAKER_01 57:42

And then the one you're talking about, the other one that was big, the um the full white one, the one to like the poor stone that was resin. And so the polystone is actually a little bit heavier and it's a little bit more, it's more fragile. But the um resin is a little bit more flexible, and it's not it doesn't really shatter as much unless you like obviously like destroy it. But like besides that, that one's a little bit more forgiving, but and it's but it's way lighter. Way, way, way lighter.

SPEAKER_03 58:10

And did you source the production on it? Yeah. I have to source that one. Um and what went into that and how did you make the decision?

SPEAKER_01 58:17

Oh, you have to like you have to figure out a way to do it in like terms. So like that's a whole nother level of like trying to figure out how you want to like draw everything up. So you we always do things in like 2D. So like having to figure out how you want everything to look from every single angle. You have to like figure out how you know how a turn will look. So like almost like you're doing toy making. Yeah. So you have to figure out like how the back's gonna look, how the side's gonna look, and then you send it off to the production, and they can kind of like figure out like 3D model it. You go back and forth, y'all like you know, talk averse and see what you want to change, and then once after that they figure out what material, and then after that they move forward, and then the production starts, and then you kinda like look it over one more time, and then the rest is like just done. The only thing I've tried to do that was different, it didn't ever come out though, was um marble. And that's like a whole nother that takes longer, it's obviously way more heavier. And they actually did make a prototype, so it's somewhere in the world, it's a prototype of a marble piece. Somewhere it was like sourced in Italy, so in the ether somebody has it over the in Italy, it never came out, but it's at least the prototype is there, yeah. Yeah, it's just a marble piece, like my piece. Wow, yeah. You so raw. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:33

Nice. You just casually say, yeah, so I designed the figure and sourced the production, and yeah, we just you know, but I think a lot of times, like um it's easy as an artist to say, let me go to this other entity to do it for me. But I think um what I love about you and your story is that like you're finding the points to learn it and do it yourself. Um so even when you know those other collaborations come, you know. Right. You know what to ask for and you know how to advocate for yourself. Um collaborating with brands. Um, can you talk about like just very like, you know, like maybe high level of like what are the what are the things that people should know to not be taken advantage of specific to working with brands? Because I think a lot of times with and I've learned this just through like photography of like you can be commissioned, but then there's a licensing. Oh yeah. And then there's like how they want the image to be presented.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:29

Yeah, and it gets it can get tricky, and a lot of times when you are just happy to be here and you're like, man, I really want to work with this brand, and like so yeah, how have you been able to, I guess, like advocate for yourself, but then advice for artists who are like, Yeah, man, it's the brand of my dreams, but yeah, you know, how do I make sure that I'm yeah, I I used to now it's like almost like uh I don't say PTSD, but it's like almost like like I'm starting. Yeah, the branding thing, it's like it always seems like it's a good idea, but I don't think I've had the best luck with brands. Like, usually it starts off good. It always, you know, comes with like a lot of promises of like, you know, this becoming a big thing and like it's gonna be so easy and gonna be like a quick back and forth. And then as time goes on, once the actual production starts of like getting the sketches in, the colors, usually that's I'm still good during that time. When the finals are starting to get made, that's when it becomes an issue all of a sudden. I don't know, maybe it's just me, but like it becomes a thing where like, hey, like, you know, even though I've definitely been going back and forth with you and reproving everything and saying everything looks nice, can you change, you know, X, Y, and Z? And you're like, okay, because you know, it's the first time you're like, Oh, that's nothing. You know, and then it turns into like, okay, can you change this too? And you're like, okay, now sorry, like, did you want me to do this? Or are you trying to fit me into the mode of you have an idea what you want in and instead of just telling me you want to do it? Up front, you kind of are coming back now, yeah. And that's what I feel like a lot of brands do, especially work working with like artists, and even when you say with um you said for with photography and everything, like it's a thing where they have an idea already in their head, but they don't wanna say it because they think they're gonna get scared away. Because there's always this thing, like when you work, the first thing I always ask is like, Hey, how much freedom am I gonna have like when it comes to create creative, you know, outlook or whatever? And usually all of them always say the oh, you can't whatever you want. Anything you want, it's gonna look, you know, it's gonna be in your style and you know, we want you kind of situation. Then it turns into, you know, hey, like, can you make it plainer? And you're like, okay, it's because you know, we don't we don't see the um, you know, whatever the product it is. You're like, okay, cool, cool. It's like, okay, can you take out this too? And then you're like, okay. And then, oh, okay, I don't see none of your art at all. And you're like, yeah, because you literally told me the scrap of the city.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:56

You took it all out. You sucked it out, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:59

You're like, oh, add um this in. And I'm like, okay, look. And I'll have to tell them, like, because it just happened with recently with the last brand that I just did, it was was a while, it's like what last year, I think. And I told him, I'm like, you know, if you took that much out because you knew it was gonna be a problem, I don't think adding it back in, I think if anything uh. Oh, yeah. I I don't think adding it back in is gonna like, you know, fly over well with the higher ups. Cause I'm like, if they already wanted it kind of somewhat plain.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:30

Yeah. So it's like that alignment. Yeah. And you and you realize that a lot from um company to agency to who yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Yeah, it becomes a thing where like they already like said have like a it's like it has to go through steps. So like those people who are talking to you, they're usually the correct creative directors and like the people who run like the more art scene, but the people at the top are the real like the real ones that have to approve of everything. So what happens is they might be okay with your art. They probably are, but the people who are above. Maybe they don't get it, there's a disconnect.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:00

That's what usually end up happens. And how do you have you manage that? Is it like well, I'm not working with these brands or I'm being selected. Okay, she said, I'm taking me off.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:09

I'm not um most of them I don't because it sometimes become an issue with like I don't say like a respect thing, but like, you know, it's a time that it takes, you know. And if a project goes past a certain date and I'm could have been doing other projects, you know, 'cause you're pretty uh usually I'm I'm pretty upfront about what, you know, how long something will take. Mm-hmm. And if one of their starting like rushing me or thinking like, okay, I don't want to say that they think I'm on like their payroll, but you can't tell me to change something and then expect it um like the next day to be due and that's what usually enough happens. Like I feel like I'm on I'm not in a illustration agency or like a I don't work for their company, I work just regular artists. So you can't like expect a turnaround rate of like a few hours, like, oh can by the end of the day, can you have this? I'm like that's not how that works. Right. And that's what they think. So a lot of times I don't really work with brands again, usually. Or they'll try to like shortchange it like a lot. And usually they're worse sometimes than like random, like smaller companies or um or even like certain like galleries or like like something more random, they might pay actually more than a brand deal. So if you might be working for I'm not gonna say any names, but certain brands, but like you know, they'll be paying you like two grand a thousand to do like an advertisement. And it's like you I mean and this is gonna be all around the world. You're like this is like you I mean you guys are known. You're like you're you're a big company. You're you know, you're definitely gonna do well. Yeah. And you definitely have the money. It's like you don't have to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:43

Yeah, so being okay to like um yeah to advocate for yourself and ask, and then I guess for you know, folks that may be listening, it's like it's okay not to go down that route. Oh, yeah. It's okay not to want the like recognition of working with the brand.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

I've had multiple times where I almost almost walked away from brand collaborations because of the back and forth. Mm-hmm. And it was only one time I had to really ask for like more money. 'Cause other times I'm like, I'm just gonna walk away. But it was one time I'm like, look, I'm already did the work, like, I'm gonna need more money. You got it? Yeah, I did. But yeah, but the whole point is like I didn't have to I didn't want to have to get to that point of like being so annoyed. Yeah. Where I'm like, hey, like I need I need a little bit more on top of that. Yeah, I told him not only give me more on like money, but at the same time, I'm like, now when you come back, 'cause I'm like this close to walking away, give me a detailed scope of work, yeah. Exactly what you want. So it's not any more, you know, back and forth. And I told him just like that. They did. It was a whole new project, basically, but I was like, hey, I'm like, and after this, you know it's not any more changes. And I just told him like square away, like this. Since you say that's exactly what you want, I'll paint. Do exactly what you want. Yeah. And I got the extra money on top.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:02

Let's go. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's possible. Yeah, it's possible. Um, a couple more questions. Um, what will you not compromise as an artist? Oh, this is easy.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:11

Um, you you always gotta get paid. Is is no no freebies, no promotion, no like make sure you always get paid. It's not no negative. I feel like that's revolutionary what you're saying.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:25

Because it's not, you know, the concept of exposure and access is no no paid. Yeah, I will not compromise. Yeah. Um, what's next? What are you working on?

SPEAKER_01 1:07:36

Right now, I think I might be working to finally take a break. Let's go. Because back to back. You already know I've always talked about this. Like this has been, I haven't like small breaks now and then, because I think only like when I've taken vacation has been like you could take a year off. I know I could take a year off. I could, because everything else has been like a week, week, week.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:58

And just do like panels, go and talk and show up.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:02

No, then don't I'm hey, I'm not against that, especially if it's to pay. Exactly. They gonna bring you up there? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, definitely. Even like getting me like actually getting the plane takes everything taken care of, of course. But besides that, probably just painting when I feel like it, and then just doing like little small stuff for now. Okay. But like I know I said I might do a solo next year, we'll see. And if it is, it's because I you know, I just get tired of sitting around. So you like, look, I get tired and set back in. Yeah, I needed to do something. But I don't like to stay, you know, sitting around doing nothing for too long. Yeah. But besides that, it's like I have to do a course of talk. I'm doing Saturday. Coming up, yeah, yeah, yeah. But besides that, like, I'm chillin', doing like maybe like they get two more packs to actually do commission, and after that, um just doing whatever I want to do. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:54

Well, cheers to that. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. Um, thank y'all so much for tuning in. Um, you can follow us on positioning your passion, um, as well as at Kayla May underscore art. Um, and then anything else you want to plug?

SPEAKER_00 1:09:11

No, that was it.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:12

Okay. That's it. I'm not doing it. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:14

I'm not doing it.